Hi-Risk/Recurrent/Advanced PCa Video Chat, Aug 9, 2022
AnCan APOLOGIZES FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE FROM DOWNTIME ON OUR WEBSITE AT THE END OF JULY. AS A RESULT WE ARE NOW SWITCHING THE HOST.
Check out our NEW AnCan Veterans Support Group – all conditions, all genders … with the purpose of helping Vets navigate their healthcare, benefits, and disabilties no matter their Provider! https://ancan.org/veterans/
All AnCan’s groups are free and drop-in … join us in person sometime! You can find out more about our 12 monthly prostate cancer meetings at https://ancan.org/prostate-cancer/ Sign up to receive a weekly Reminder/Newsletter for this Group or others at https://ancan.org/contact-us/
Editor’s Pick: Libido … from a Care Partners pespective – and lots about Pluvicto (rd)
Topics Discussed
BRCA Newbie overly concerned about cachexia; combining institutions for Tx; Pluvicto supply issues … again!; does Pluvicto obscure X-rays?; Pluvicto side effects; blood thinning problem; Ports – Y/N; bone density on ADT; ONJ; not so quiet on the Eastern Front; reading PSMA scans; after a spike, abi continues to work; Provenge reconsidered … and pursued; relugolix + darolutamide combo; libido – from carepartners PoV; PSMA screening threshold
Chat Log
Mike Yancey (to Everyone): 3:04 PM: I enjoyed speaking with you too. Had by Pluvicto this morning…….
Rich Jackson (to Everyone): 3:06 PM: https://ancan.org/veterans/
Russ Strehlow (to Everyone): 4:10 PM: How do you spell that? * bone strengthener
Ben Nathanson (to Everyone): 4:11 PM: Denosumab
Len Sierra (to Everyone): 4:21 PM: XGEVA® is a 120-mg SC injection administered once every 4 weeks 1 The mean elimination half-life of XGEVA® was 28 days. Having said that, I believe most medoncs give Xgeva once every 3 months.
George Rovder Arlington VA (to Everyone): 4:31 PM: 🙂
Bob G. Philadelphia (to Everyone): 4:59 PM: According to the literature, half life of Xgeva may be 28 days, but the drug stays in the body for 140 days. So, I guess every 3 mo. would work, at least in the beginning.
Ancan – rick (to Everyone): 5:03 PM: Saving Your Sex LIfe
Joe Gallo (to Everyone): 5:04 PM: by john mulhall @ MSKCC; on Amazon
Herb Geller (to Everyone): 5:04 PM: doi: 10.1097/SPC.0000000000000190. Maintaining intimacy for prostate cancer patients on androgen deprivation therapy Richard J Wassersug 1
Herb Geller (to Organizer(s) Only): 5:14 PM: Gotta go. Sorry!
Julian Morales – Houston (to Everyone): 5:15 PM: Thanks everyone – Talk to all next week!
Bob G. Philadelphia (to Everyone): 5:19 PM: Thanks
Hi-Risk/Recurrent/Advanced PCa Video Chat, Aug 1, 2022
AnCan APOLOGIZES FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE FROM DOWNTIME ON OUR WEBSITE AT THE END OF JULY. AS A RESULT WE ARE NOW SWITCHING THE HOST.
All AnCan’s groups are free and drop-in … join us in person sometime! You can find out more about our 12 monthly prostate cancer meetings at https://ancan.org/prostate-cancer/ Sign up to receive a weekly Reminder/Newsletter for this Group or others at https://ancan.org/contact-us/
Editor’s Pick: Crossing international borders when you’re ‘hot’; and watch your statins on Nubeqa (rd)
TopicsDiscussed
Recurrence after 19 years???; crossing the Border on Pluvicto; delayed PSA response to Pluvicto; throat side -effects; drug holiay approved; reduced darolutamide dosage; statins and darolutamide; debating Provenge – abscopal effect with spot RT; overreading G68 PSMA scans; chemo must precede Pluvicto; why hot flashes persist with no LHRH; adding abi to adjuvant RT; treating PCa testicular spread; FMI report reveals TP53; dealing with chemo
Chat Log
Frank Fabish – Columbus OH (to Organizer(s) Only): 5:16 PM: No update from me tonight. My next checkup and blood draw is Tuesday 8/23. Leaving for Cabo San Lucas on 8/4 for two weeks. A little bit of beach therapy.
Peter Kafka – Maui (to Everyone): 5:27 PM: Is this really advanced disease? Or even recurrent yet?
Bill Franklin – Sunny Florida (to Everyone): 5:28 PM: When all you have is a hammer…
C Huerta (to Everyone): 5:58 PM: Got to get to a Board Meeting. Next time …
AnCan – rick (to Everyone): 5:58 PM: Carl you have to tell me that upfront
john antonucci–CT (to Everyone): 5:59 PM: Lu177 half life 6.7 d. decays to stable hafnium 177 via beta radiation
Ken (to Everyone): 6:01 PM: thanks John
Jim Marshall, Alexandria, VA (to Everyone): 6:06 PM: John, ask him if he is on Medicare Advantage,Part C or Medicare, Part B. The Advantage provider may be the one denying. Jim
Stephen Saft (to Everyone): 6:28 PM: From google Adverse Reactions: The most common adverse reactions reported in clinical trials (≥ 15% of patients receiving PROVENGE) were chills, fatigue, fever, back pain, nausea, joint ache, and headache.
GEORGE ROVDER Arlington VA (to Everyone): 6:28 PM: Thanks
Steve. Peter Kafka – Maui (to Everyone): 6:35 PM: Gotta go = see y’all next week.
Frank Fabish – Columbus OH (to Everyone): 6:54 PM: Gotta go guys. Thanks for the info.
Stephen Saft (to Everyone): 7:04 PM: I am going to say goodnight. Tommorrow is 3 weeks since surgery. I need some time to prepare to get bed. Thanks everyone for sharing.
Jerry Pelfrey – Mexico (to Everyone): 7:10 PM: Time, have to go now. Thanks to everyone.
David Muslin (to Everyone): 7:14 PM: Dr Russell Szmulewitz New nurse January 2022 – Meghan Catenacci meghan.catenacci@uchospitals.edu
Julian Morales – Houston (to Everyone): 7:17 PM: Have to leave. Thanks for the great advice and c onversation! See y’all next Tuesday.
Stan Friedman – Stamford (to Everyone): 7:20 PM: Good night guys. Have an early morning start.
GEORGE ROVDER Arlington VA (to Everyone): 7:33 PM: Embr Wave
Bob G. Philadelphia (to Everyone): 7:34 PM: Thanks everyone. Have a good night
AnCan has an ongoing interest in issues around heart health for men on hormone therapy – especially if it involves androgen deprivation with an LHRH drug. We speak about this often in our High Risk/Recuirrent/Advanced meetings where many men are impacted, including our Moderators.
Last year AnCan produced a great webinar addressing this issue – yup, we know it says Active Surveillance, but Dr. Darryl Leong did a great job addressing LHRH implciations too. Watch it here. We are now particpating with Drs. Leong and Narayan at Penn who were just awarded a research grant to address heart health. We followed this up by nominating Dr. John Antonucci to appear on a CureTalk Panel addressing cardio-oncology issues. Listen to Dr. John talking with UCSF’s Dr. Javid Moslehi here. And recently Professor Herb Geller PhD spotted a good ASCO journal article reviewing the state of play. Herb and Dr. John, who himself has cardio considerations, worked together to summarize this piece, that follows. (rd)
The first line of treatment for recurrent and advanced prostate cancer is Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT). ADT is known to promote metabolic syndrome that has adverse cardio results. One controversial issue is whether an agonist Leutinizing Hormone Releasing Hormone (LHRH) like Lupron (and its sisters) or an antagonist LHRH like Firmagon (and its brothers) is safer for our hearts? Most of us with high-risk/recurrent disease are on one or the other and we generally hate them, though they keep our PSAs very low, sometimes for years.
So how do they work? Well, we want to keep our testosterone (T) as low as possible to “starve” out our prostate cancer that feeds on it. The drugs to do this are those that interfere with the brain’s signals to the testes to make T; that signal comes from the pituitary gland. There are two ways to do this:
Goose the pituitary gland in the brain with an “agonist” LHRH that overstimulates it producing excess testosterone. That explains the T. flare we often speak about. The over-signal shuts down this response in the pituitary by flooding and desensitizing receptors over time. The testes may also be complaining to the hypothalmus they are overworked in a separate feedback loop to the pituitary. The whole production of testosterone eventually stops. This LHRH drug is leuprolide; brand names include Lupron, Eligard, Zoladex, and Trelstar (we capitalize brand names and not generic names).
Block LHRH with an “antagonist”. No signal deactivates the pituitary signal to the testes and voila … no testosterone. Antagonists are Firmagon (degarelix) and Orgovix (relugovix).
Both work well, albeit differently, to do the job
No testosterone in your body can result in cardiac implications. There is a vigorous, ongoing debate whether the type of LHRH used mitigates your heart risk. This is of intense interest to us prostate cancer men with heart disease that can take us under.
As our Blog Editor remarked above, AnCan closely follows this debate. Some studies seem to clearly say the agonists are toxic to the heart, and others don’t demonstrate this. Every study has been faulted by the community of scientists, which by this time includes many in the new specialty of cardio-oncology. As a result, researchers are making painstaking efforts to remove all possible flaws from their study designs—a difficult task outside the lab. As these studies are better designed, they have shown decreasing cardiotoxicity for the medications and less and less difference between the two types of medications.
The most reliable study in this review, PRONOUNCE, was a randomized controlled study (the best kind of experiment) that compared an agonist, leuprolide/Lupron, against an antagonist, degarelix/Firmagon. All the men in the study had cardiovascular disease. The outcome measure was major adverse cardiovascular events, and the raters scored these events without knowing what medications the subjects were on. Tisseverasinghe said PRONOUNCE “was ideally conceived to isolate results from confounders and biases”. Results of PRONOUNCE? No significant difference between the two medications in terms of the heart, and very low cardiovascular events overall. So, do we finally have an answer?
Well even PRONOUNCE can be criticized. It tried for 900 subjects to make its statistics valid; it only got 545 – that’s still a pretty good number. Bad outcomes were very low: about 5% – some 3% died in the 1st year, 1.5 % from heart attack, 1% from stroke. It’s very hard to meaningfully compare groups with such small numbers. But the authors of the Tisseverasinghe article argue that even if PRONOUNCE was fully completed the outcome would still be the same. Our takeaway: it was the excellent and modern cardiological and cardio-oncological care that made those numbers of adverse cardiovascular effects in PRONOUNCE so low.
And so what can we conclude? It’s not proven, but it does not look like your doctor has to worry about using antagonists over agonists out of concern for your heart. And given modern cardio-oncological care, it does not look like we have to be terribly frightened for our heart IF we take care of it ….. HOW??
be aware of angina symptoms,
ask about aspirin,
monitor blood pressure,
monitor cholesterol and lipids,
stop smoking tobacco in any form
maintain a good diet (i.e. Mediterranean),
exercise regularly, and
practice weight control.
If there is risk, have a good cardiologist, and if risk is very high or you’re on immune therapy, find a cardio-oncologist.
John Antonucci & Herb Geller (follow up directly at dr.john@ancan.org; herb@ancan.org)
Work cited:
Tisseverasinghe S, Tolba M, Saad F, Gravis G, Bahoric B, Niazi T. Should Prostate Cancer Patients With History of Cardiovascular Events Be Preferentially Treated With Luteinizing Hormone- Releasing Hormone Antagonists? J Clin Oncol. 2022 Jul 21:JCO2200883. doi: 10.1200/JCO.22.00883 https://ascopubs.org/doi/full/10.1200/JCO.22.00883?bid=187952004&cid=DM11125
Hi-Risk/Recurrent/Advanced PCa Video Chat, July 26, 2022
AnCan APOLOGIZES FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE FROM DOWNTIME ON OUR WEBSITE THIS PAST WEEK. AS A RESULT WE ARE NOW IN THE PROCESS OF SWITCHING THE HOST.
All AnCan’s groups are free and drop-in … join us in person sometime! You can find out more about our 12 monthly prostate cancer meetings at https://ancan.org/prostate-cancer/ Sign up to receive a weekly Reminder/Newsletter for this Group or others at https://ancan.org/contact-us/
Editor’s Pick: No one ever asked but exactly how much chemo is required to be eligible for Pluvicto?… Jim B wants to know! And watch out for the Nurse Practitioners when your doc isn’t available(rd)
Topics Discussed
Denovo Mx Newbie experiences heart issues from treatment; when to see the NP; chemo failing – time for Pluvicto; handling anxiety; Carl’s next step – Pluvicto, rechallenging PARP, or …??; defer ADT for oligoMx spot RT; advanced PCa REQUIRES GU med onc who knows the map; how much chemo required for Pluvicto qualification; rechallenging with another radionuclide; treatments for PTEN and SPOP?
Chat Log
AnCan – rick (to Organizer(s) Only): 3:19 PM: No PTEN, TP53??
Herb Geller (to Organizer(s) Only): 3:19 PM: There must be some specific mutations
AnCan – rick (to Everyone): 3:22 PM: Great job getting your son to test, Bob!
ALFRED LATIMER (to Everyone): 3:37 PM: Bob: you have learrned an amazing amount about PCa in four months. Great job with the homework!
Len Sierra (to Organizer(s) Only): 3:44 PM: definitely!
Julian Morales – Houston (to Everyone): 3:58 PM: need to leave early tonite – catch you all next week!
Henry (Private): 4:12 PM: Hey there Rick. This is your old buddy Henry from Alabama. I joined late and so didn’t get on the list to ask questions/speak. Is there still room, or already too full for tonight? Not urgent. It’s about my PTEN SPOP deletions with low tumor mutational burden and microsatellite stability. I’ve learned from Dr. E (thanks to you hooking us up!!!!!!) that PTEN may = abiraterone resistance. This can totally wait ‘till next week or more. Thanks!!
Peter Kafka – Maui (to Organizer(s) Only): 4:17 PM: Guys: I wil be hopping off before 2pm – Got to catch an overnight flight back to Minneapolis. My first Keytruda infusion will be with Antonarakis next Tuesday. I am optimistic. Thanks for everything. I will try and catch up with some of the more recent MN guys who have popped up in recent weeks over the summer months.
David Muslin (to Everyone): 4:22 PM: Is Bob castrate resistant?
Peter Kafka – Maui (to Everyone): 4:33 PM: Good catch Dennis!
Bob McHugh (to Everyone): 4:34 PM: Many thanks to all. Good night.
Peter Kafka – Maui (to Everyone): 4:37 PM: Chemo # 5 & 6 are the worst.
Mark Finn (to Everyone): 4:47 PM: Rick – info on “weaning off” prednisone? thanks
AnCan – rick (to Everyone): 4:49 PM: SLOWLY!!!!!!!! Please speak to your docs!!
Mark Finn (to Everyone): 4:50 PM: OK – “slowly”? 5mg every other day? 2.5/day by cutting tablet? Expected side effects if go cold turkey?: I am going off prednizone and have about 10 tabs remaining.
Jim Marshall, Alexandria, VA (to Everyone): 4:53 PM: I did 2.5 prednisone for 10 days and 2.5 every other day for 10 days. Seem to work. jim marshall
AnCan – rick (to Everyone): 4:54 PM: Mark Finn …. you don’t want to go cold turkey. I know someone who lost 30# …. really screws up your adrenals.
David Muslin (to Everyone): 4:55 PM: When should Jim B check his PSA next?
Herb Geller (to Everyone): 4:56 PM: I assume they will check before the next chemo.
Jerry Pelfrey – Mexico (to Everyone): 5:14 PM: sorry I have to leave gents. Have a good week and see you next week!
Bob G (to Everyone): 5:15 PM: Have to leave. Thank you for all the great feedback & info. Will be back. Have a good night.
Kevin Bagnasco (Private): 5:17 PM. I am at a crossroad now. I have done LU-177, Actinium 8 sessions of docetaxel. Tagawa has taken me off because of the neuropathy in my fingers (nothing in toes). Scans are scheduled this Friday. I have an appointment with Tagawa on the 2nd and Petrylac on the 4th. PSA has gone from 9/9/21 (4.93 to 19.7).metastasized tumors are throughout my skeleton system.
AnCan’s Brains Trust Review Very Recent Seminal Prostate Cancer Work
A couple of weeks ago a prospective seminal paper was published in Nature . Of course, you don’t know if a paper is seminal until it is considered and acclaimed, but this paper is already getting plaudits.
It wouldn’t be the first time some of the paper’s authors have been acclaimed. Back in 2018 several of ‘the usual suspects’, Drs. Small, Aggarwal, Feng, Chi et al published a work in ASCO’s respected Journal of Clinical Oncology. I had first heard about that hypothesis some 3 years earlier at a UCSF Prostate Cancer Research Retreat where Eric Small suggested that advanced prostate cancer morphs into a small cell/neuroendocrine like form as the disease progresses. The significance of this current paper brought the earlier one to mind.
So what is the revelation from this new opus. Well first a tip off – it was published in Nature! That immediately indicates that you need a science background, and maybe even a PhD to even understand the abstract. Not surprisingly, it left me cold so I reached out to our AnCan PCa Brains Trust for a better understadning. Herb Geller and Ben Nathanson independently took the time to reveiw and summarize their understanding in easy-to-understand, patient lingo … and that’s what is presented below.
Oh … and the revelation as I understand it – that in time liquid biopsies will allow us to better define and personally tailor hormone therapy for each man.
Prof. Herb Geller sees this paper clearly identifying that the sum of the parts as greater than the whole ….
Current clinical practice depends upon traditional measures such as serum PSA and scans to stage prostate cancer and determine treatment protocols. More recently, liquid biopsies (from analyzing a blood sample) have begun to provide more information about mutations and cancer progression.
A new paper in Nature from a large group of clinicians and scientists takes the use of liquid biopsies to the next level through the use of whole-genome sequencing and samples taken over time to provide a more detailed picture of cancer progression in metastatic castration resistant prostate cancer (mCRPC) and compare that picture with a similar analysis of a biopsied metastatic site.
One result is that the liquid biopsy can provide a more detailed picture than the surgical biopsy. For example, they find, through the use of sophisticated analytical techniques, that the liquid biopsy shows that different metastatic sites have different mutations, and that sequential liquid biopsies can trace the evolution of the cancer within each site and how it contributes to overall progression. This is in contrast to current methods which only look at the aggregate.
Two observations are of particular interest. One is that they can follow the contribution of the individual sites to cancer progression. Given that some sites may have specific mutations, this may suggest precision treatment protocols that are tailored to each mutation, either separately or in combination. The second is that, while there are many different mutations associated with prostate cancer, they reaffirm that the major driver of cancer progression is the androgen receptor, suggesting, in their view, medicine needs to keep finding new ways to suppress AR signalling.
The overall impact of this paper is that it provides methods that can be implemented more generally. The major current impediments are the cost of whole-genome sequencing, which is decreasing exponentially, and the computational power needed to do the analysis. However, given the huge potential for providing clinical insights, we should expect to see these methods get implemented at major cancer centers.
Ben Nathanson thinks this paper will open the door for Game Theory to play a part in treatment strategy …
A new paper in Nature allows us to witness the day-to-day evolution of a patient’s cancer as its mutations grow and shrink. This level of knowledge is unprecedented, and it can change the face of research and treatment.
Cancer’s guessing game
A drug trial may yield dozens of failures and one miraculous remission. Hormone therapy is indistinguishable from a cure — then stops working. Though we can investigate cancer down to the molecular level, help unraveling these cases is limited because the molecular data is only a snapshot.
We can see what’s different in the genes of the one exceptional responder, but we struggle to identify which differences were significant — and more importantly, why they mattered. We can inventory the mutations in our castrate-resistant cancer, but have no clue how they evolved and how they might be countered.
Instead of snapshots, we need live-action footage. This work provides it.
The very different makeup of five patients’ cancers and their responses over time. A color indicates a cell population with a unique set of mutations. Plots show the details of each individual’s response. Circled numbers are times at which liquid biopsies were taken; AE numbers are patient IDs. The researchers were able to project back before the first measurement to the very start of the cancer. A lot of information was gained from a few measurements. From Herberts et al., Deep whole-genome ctDNA chronology of treatment-resistant prostate cancer.
Evolution of five cancers
The figure above shows the kind of information yielded up by the new work. Each plot is from a different patient; rises and falls are changes in his PSA. A color indicates a unique cell population with its own set of mutations.
We can see what’s happening in each patient’s cancer to cause those changes in PSA.
Based on liquid biopsies
The Nature paper has a lot to be excited about. The molecular information comes from blood samples — “liquid biopsies” — rather than conventional tissue biopsies. Tissue biopsies are impossible when a tumor is too small or inaccessible, and are time-consuming, require high-level medical expertise, and can be painful. Liquid biopsies just require drawing blood.
Convenience aside, a liquid biopsy contains data from every metastasis, not just one.
Samples can be taken again and again during the course of the disease, tracking its evolution in detail.
Liquid biopsies are already used clinically to find treatable mutations in genes like BRCA2. The new results can turn liquid biopsies into the most revealing tool we have ever had to investigate castrate resistance. Ultimately it can make them the tool of choice for assessing patients and monitoring treatment — a requisite for precision medicine.
Real-time results
The work also can strengthen use of game theory and similar novel strategies to head off resistance. Cancer uses Darwin’s playbook: A mutation that improves survival in a hostile environment allows a cell and its children to dominate. If we continuously deprive a tumor of androgens, cells that need androgens will be replaced by mutations that don’t.
Thus one way to prevent resistance may be to modulate treatment so nascent mutations have no chance to grow. Trials are underway that do this, using PSA to monitor the cancer. We gain an advantage if we can lean over and read cancer’s cards. That’s what the research offers: an opportunity to see mutational populations growing and shrinking in real time.
No new equipment
Another exciting aspect of the work is how little it requires. There’s no special assay, no new machinery, no delicate lab procedure. It needs only a state-of-the-art DNA sequencer and public software.
Thus any lab with a good sequencer can join this effort and expand it in countless directions. Part of the software was designed to fit the data in this specific study, but the authors explain their work, and the results are so compelling that other institutions are likely to help generalize the code.
Biological insights
The authors have already made biological discoveries using their methodology, and these dominate the paper. Most require a deeper knowledge of genomics than I can lay claim to, but at least two bear mentioning.
The research confirmed that the DNA in the liquid biopsies showed more diversity than DNA in comparison tissue biopsies – suggesting that tissue biopsies do indeed reveal only part of the story.
And the work sought to determine for the first time whether genes other than the androgen receptor gene change during androgen deprivation. The AR gene was, in fact, the only gene seen to change in every sample. Their conclusion: As long as ADT remains the backbone of prostate therapy, medicine needs to keep finding new ways to suppress AR signaling.
For now this is a tool for insight rather than treatment. Today, although we can see those colors and know exactly what’s in them, we don’t know what to do about them. There’s much we have to learn about cancer dynamics, but we now have a tool that gives us a front-row seat.